Is Ongoing Victim Status Warranted?

While searching Twitter for Dr. Laura stuff, it became apparent that the last call she took at the end of today's first hour got on the nerves of several people on Twitter, and likely a lot of other people in the audience who didn't take to Twitter.

If you catch the podcast, it started  at 40:23 and is from "Linn" (not sure of the spelling, but a woman). She's 57, and she said she has two older brothers, one of them being two years older. She went on to say that when she was 11 and/or 12, (making him 13/14), he did some sexual things with/to her for a couple of years, about half a dozen times.

Generally, and it was consistent for this call, Dr. Laura notes that if there is less than four years age difference between teens/preteens and there isn't threats or force or anything along those lines, the therapeutic community tends to look at these things not as abuse, but as mutual messing around out of adolescent or childhood curiosity (although, Dr. Laura noted that a lot of feminist/victim-bent counselors would feed into the caller's perspective of it all being horrendous abuse on the part of her brother).

The caller said she would freeze, and that she knew it was wrong. She also said she'd "blocked out" some of it. Those are the "magic words" for Dr. Laura, who dismisses (as, now, do many therapists) "repressed/recovered" memories. She notes that there are a lot of military people with PTSD that wish they had the ability to repress memories. I'd like to believe Dr. Laura is right, but I also wonder if SOME people can repress memories and others "can't".

Anyway, Dr. Laura noted that they were close in age, and also gave the caller a chance to throw in if her brother had been threatening or forceful or whatever, but the caller didn't. Clearly, Dr. Laura expected that if the caller was entirely a victim (rather than being somewhat curious or horny herself), she would have done something after the first or second time... told someone, screamed, fought with him... something. The caller did say there was a time she walked away, but the rest of the time she said she was "frozen".

Dr. Laura referred to the situation as "complicated". She wasn't "blaming the victim". She was, from what I can tell, trying to depict a difference from reluctant, but willing participation in sex play and actually being forced or manipulated in an assault.

If I understood correctly, the caller waited until she was 45 to write a letter and read it to her brother. If he was truly predatory then he likely went on to abuse others. So that's a lot of time for him to go without anyone calling him out. At some point, someone who has been abused has a responsibility to protect others.

Did Dr. Laura botch this call? I don't think so. I can believe that the caller genuinely feels victimized and is still suffering as a result, but the question is why does she feel that way? Perhaps if she'd gotten the right help sooner, she'd be much better off now. Was her brother a predator, or just a curious boy? All we have is what the caller said, and she said she'd "freeze" and didn't tell anyone. I don't know... if I'd been that age and someone was doing something to me, I know I would  have told someone, unless it wasn't predatory and was mutual. But we're not all the same, are we? 11/12 is a little old to stay silent, I think, unless there's a whole 'nother story to what was going on in that family.

I never had any desire to do anything with my siblings. I never looked at them that way. Nothing ever happened between us. I was shy and modest. But as therapists know, childhood/adolescent messing around does happen between some siblings. It can be wrong without being a criminal or abusive matter.

Self-Inflicted Wounds Can Be the Most Painful

On our very first date, the woman who later became my wife asked me for my thoughts on how children should be raised. I told her that strangers would not be raising my children.

If that sounds like strange first date banter, that's because our fist date happened a few months after I was introduced to her and after we'd since communicated some important things about ourselves to each other, including that we were looking for an eventual spouse.

After I told her that strangers would be raising my children, I told her I was flexible about how that would be accomplished. I was open to being the one to stay with the kids, for example. She quickly said she'd be the one to stay with the kids. As it turns out, her three main goals in life were to work in the profession she did, to marry, and to be a mother, and by be a mother she wanted to mother, not hire other people to babysit/raise her kids five days a week.

The other day there was a call to Dr. Laura from a woman who wanted to put her four year-old into a weekday program at their church that took preschoolers several hours a day three days per week. Dr. Laura quickly identified it as daycare, insisted that children do not like such programs, and pointed out that nobody cares about a child as much as that child's mother.

I agree, at least with the last phrase. However, I do think some children may actually prefer these programs over being with mom if being with mom means being stuck at home, without friends at that.

The problem is, when Dr. Laura is making these comments, she's thinking of only one child being involved (she only had one) and she's envisioning a mother taking their one child on bicycle rides and walks, to the park, etc. That also what I thought I was getting - a wife who'd be that kind of mother to our children. After all, she had a full-time job working with children and knew about child development and the needs of children, and she wanted to be a stay-with-kids mother.


Our daughter is in grade school. My wife is homeschooling her. We also have a son. My wife wants to stick our son into pretty much the same program the caller described, only for two days a week instead of three. She says it is just too difficult to teach our daughter when our son delights in interfering, especially when it is to torment his sister (at which he excels). And she says it is just for this school year, since he'll have his own schoolwork to do next year.

I can hear Dr. Laura's first solution in my head: do the schoolwork at a park where the boy can play nearby.

But my wife doesn't feel she can do that safely - not with two children.

Then how about letting grandma take the boy twice a week?

My wife's mother is a drunk and forbidden by my wife (with my full support) to look after our children. My own mother lives an hour away and has other responsibilities.

Why not move closer to my mother?

This is the house my wife wanted.

Why not move closer to her now?

Our excellent credit has been tarnished due to decisions by my wife. We're not moving anywhere.

Why not stick the daughter in school?

Public schools suck in our neighborhood and our state has turned public schools into madhouses in general.

Why not stick the daughter in private school?

I don't have the money. In part because of all the money I pay to fund the unusable public schools.

Why not become a stay-with-kids dad and have the wife go to work?

She is done working. She's not going to go back full-time, and we can't disrupt my work situation because we need the insurance due to my wife's medical situations.


Why did you pick her to be the mother of your children if she is incapable?

She seemed capable. She had no children yet, so how could I be sure? There's much she and her family did not reveal to me until after we were married and had children.

Why did you have two children instead of one?

My wife insisted that she didn't want our daughter being an only child, and I had no idea that having two children instead of one would be such a problem for her.

Tell her to bite the bullet and be a mother to her son.

Well, yeah, except she has the trump card.

I expressed my opinion, even though it resulted in exactly what I figured it would - she's feeling hurt and upset, and nothing's going to change for the better. Everyone in my family has always urged us to stick the kids into "pre-school". It is clear they think she's a crappy mother, or at least unable to be a good mother. Yet my sisters also urge me to discuss my concerns with my wife - whether with this or anything else. But it is pointless. The only thing it changes is that it diminishes her happiness/satisfaction, and I take no pleasure in that. Why make both of us less happy?

As unromantic or selfish or otherwise wrong that it seems or may be, I married because I wanted (one of us) to raise my own children in the best circumstances and because I like sex and I wanted an enthusiastic lovemaking partner who would enjoy how I loved her and would enjoy loving me, and I wanted to live by what I'm convinced is the the truth: sex is for marriage. How many Christian men are in the same boat? Don't give me "You're supposed to marry someone because you can't live without them." Please. Most marriages in the Bible and in history were not about that. And clearly, considering how well I was doing and how long I had lived on my own, I could live just fine without any woman as my wife.

Both of those reasons I married are dead. The kids will grow up, and if they turn out badly, they'll be society's problem, not mine. I don't count on the situation with the sex getting any better. Ever. It's not important to her, and what I want isn't as important to her as her own preferences, and again, talking about it will not change that, it will only make her feel bad.

Here's where things get a little more adult. You are warned.

Shady Siblings?

An anonymous American female in her 50s wrote at Dear Cupid:

I have a suspicion that my boyfriend is having an incestuous relationship with his sister.

Okay, well, stop seeing him. There's really not anything else to do. If he is, then you don't want to be with him. If he's not, then you're too suspicious for him. Or perhaps he’s too close (in a platonic way) with his sister. Be glad he's your boyfriend, not your husband.

Before I met her, she was always very jealous of me which I found very odd.

That can happen with any siblings.

We finally met and she actually lives with us temporarily.

"Us"? So you're shacking up with him? (It gets better... I've read ahead some.) Is this your place, his place, or are both of your names on the place? If it is your place, kick him out. If you are renting, move.

We went to dinner with my son and she sat between my boyfriend and me and they talked low to each other the whole night.

They were being rude. Manners are more important than morals?

Then when we got to my son's house from the restaurant my bf went to the bathroom. She ran in the house to the bathroom door banging on it for him to let her in. When he didn't she stood outside the door till I walked by then she left.

It is quite likely that she wanted to use the bathroom before he did, or she likes bothering him.

Later I heard them talking about sex.

Adults sometimes do this.

The next morning she went up to him and said in a low voice "I thought you were going to show me something" and he said he couldn't cause my son had to get up early and get in the bathroom.

If they're talking about having sex with each other, then they aren't doing a very good job of hiding it from you, could they? Don't you think they would?

Since she's been in my apt I've come home several times to the bed in my room messed up in the same way it would be had my bf had oral sex with me.

Is your boyfriend a complete idiot? He must be, if he is doing someone (sister or not) in your bed and not cleaning up. (Of course, later, she says they grew up highly religious and sheltered, so it is possible that the sister could have a "secret" relationship and could be using the writer’s bed either because it is bigger or just to be rude.)

Also I know she's been using my shower but she doesn't know I know.

So what?

They are 25 and 28.

Ah-HAAAA! Now, you can read past entries here and know that I have enjoyed being a younger man to an older woman. But really... she has these two 20-somethings, who are probably close in age to her son, living with her, and she's taking the relationship seriously with the guy?

I've been using a tape recorder but so far have nothing.

That could be illegal. She added later:

Ok for those who think I'm being too suspicious, I overheard her tell him she's still so tight down there because she's a virgin as if he knew first hand.

Well then we know they at least aren't having intercourse. This kind of talk may be strange, but it still isn't a smoking gun.

Is that something a sister would say to a brother?

Some. My wife's virgin ears used to be assaulted with her siblings talking about their sexual activities. Only not with each other. I think. See below.

And also I know from checking her things in her bathroom that she has been grooming herself and it looks like for the first time from the looks of things. Why would she do that?

Swimsuit?

He also made a joke one day that he liked young, hairy girls supposedly talking about the cat but I don't think he was talking about the cat.

Are you on meds? Should you be? He might also like Greek food, and didn't the Greeks have a story...Oeidipus Rex...about incest?

Also, every time I've suspected something happened, he's always wanted sex with me that night which tells me something during the day really turned him on.

Hmmm. Often, a guy who has had an orgasm earlier in the day will be less inclined to want sex later that same day. But then again, he is in his 20s. The writer also thinks it is a matter of the brother giving the sister oral sex and, apparently, not getting a release until later, with her.

She was abused by her dad growing up and her family life was horrible.

So there could be some messed up behavior as a result.

Well, there's no smoking gun, just a cumulative circumstantial case, but it doesn’t matter. The current situation isn't right for you, whatever it really is.

I could made a good case that two of my wife's siblings are doing it. I'll call them Robert and Alice.

A least one classmate gave Robert sexual favors as a going away present when the family moved to another region of the country. He was only 13, so he got started early. He ended up staying in that other region of the country when the family moved again so that he could complete high school and go to college in that area. This means that Robert didn't see the rest of the family much, including Alice (who is younger), during some crucial years. Siblings who mature apart from each other sometimes experience sexual attraction.

Robert and Alice have both messed around with the same girl.

Though he has sex with them, Robert keeps his women at a distance, and that seems to be fine with them for a while - they'll take what they can get before they or he moves on. Alice bounces from boyfriend to boyfriend rather quickly, and I’m fairly certain she is having sex with very few of them. Marriage doesn't appear to be in the near future for either of them.

After Robert moved back home, Robert, Alice, and my wife's other sibling moved out of the parental home together to share an apartment, then moved back in, and then Robert and Alice moved out together again. They have since moved together again to yet another rental. They have a history of "partying" together. I've noticed they will do horseplay with each other and share the hot tub. When the family is gathered for the day or the evening often with some friends, they will often go off together even though they can hang out together back at their place. It isn't because they are shy, either – they are very outgoing.

The other sibling refers to Alice as Robert's wife (to Alice's protests), and Alice does act very protective of Robert, even though he is older and can handle himself. For example, she'll badmouth his girlfriends if she thinks they have wronged Robert. On social networking sites, Robert has sometimes sent out updates referring to "we", inclusive of Alice.

So... in either case, what say you? Are the siblings in either case too close? Are they that close?

Of Sisters and Shack Ups

"Older Sister" wrote in to Dear Margo. After complaining about her younger sister for a paragraph, she gets to the meat of the issue.

Recently, she came to visit and stayed with my fiance and me and our kids.

Woah, hold on a minute there. "Our kids" as in – you made the kids together? Or "our kids" as in "my kids and his kids"? If is the former, is that why you say he is your fiancé – so that it will seem better that you are shacking up and making babies out of wedlock? Or do you actually have a ring and date? If you are "blending" kids, it is even worse. But let's get back to your complaints about your sister.

At brunch, I fed one of the kids healthy foods at his doctor’s request, and the moment I was out of sight, she loaded him up with cookies and cake from her plate.

Out!

Anytime we went anywhere, she followed my fiance in stores when we were browsing. At a family event, she waited until I went to the restroom to ask my fiance how we were doing and to offer support "if he ever needed anything." I don’t understand why she seems to go out of her way to make my fiance happy by siding with him at every opportunity.

Ditch your sister. But how did your fiancé handle the situation? If he handled it well, and he is the father of your children and generally husband material, go down to the courthouse or the county clerk's office and get married now, instead of continuing to shack up. Otherwise, dump him, too.

Margo pretty much agrees with the "ditch your sister" part. Check out the other letter in the same edition o the column, in which a child describes being her abusive mother's only friend. So sad.

Free Willy

What to do about a kid brother who struts his prepubescent twig and berries around the house? OLDER SISTER IN MCALLEN, TEXAS wrote in to Dear Abby:

My brother is 9 and still walks around naked.

I don't get this. I was strongly private and modest from an early age, though I did have to wear the tiny racing swim briefs, since I was a competitive swimmer by that age. But I didn't even want to chage in front of other boys my age. I got over my modesty when I got laid. Of course, I was 19 by then, but I still wouldn't walk around naken in front of my siblings.

I have asked "Josh" repeatedly to put on some clothes, but he blows me off and flaunts himself around the house.

My mother is no help. When I ask her to talk to him, she laughs and says, "Boys will be boys." Abby, I'm 13 and it is starting to freak me out..

Call his bluff, so to speak. You walk around naked, and see how he reacts. No, don't do't that. Uhm, I got nothing. If your parents aren't going to do anything about it, what can you do? No father is mentioned. That might have something to do with it. Dad would put an end to this, either with a stern talking-to, or by showing the kid up.

Dear Abby responded:

Your brother is acting like an immature child who's enjoying teasing his sister.

That's going to happen regardless.

On the other hand, [your mother is] wrong to laugh off your discomfort. One reason children have parents is so someone can teach them respect for the feelings of others... If he wants to be naked in his bedroom, fine and dandy. But when he's in the rooms shared by everyone, he should cover up. And if he doesn't, there should be consequences.

Hmmm. I agree, but what about his feelings? What if he feels like a naturist? I wonder if the response would be the same about crossdressing? Probably not. Dear Abby would no doubt refer the girl to an organization that would help her "understand" crossdressing, especially in boys. She would tell the sister to respect her brother’s feelings. Why not the same response for naturism? Because naturists have not been as militant?

Anyone else have a situation like this?

Girl Power That I Can Cheer

Kudos to an 11-year old heroine! (I did spell that right, didn't I?) Denisee Salazar of the Orange County Register brings us a story from Anaheim with an almost-perfect ending.

The incident occurred at 10:30 a.m. Monday at the park in the 2100 block of South Haster Street while the [three year old] boy was at the playground playing with his 11-year-old sister and 12-year-old cousin. Their mothers were watching over them, said Anaheim police Sgt. Rick Martinez.

Great - getting the kids away from the TV and out where they can play and exercise - and not putting them in some day orphanage. So far, so good.

The boy was sliding down a slide when a man grabbed him and then ran northbound through the park carrying him, Martinez said.

Scary stuff. What kind of horrors were awaiting this child? Ah, but this is where the story gets good...

The child's sister caught up to the man, kicked him in the leg, and threw dirt in his face.

YES!!! Now there's a sister who deserves some respect from her siblings.

The man dropped the boy and ran northbound across Orangewood Avenue, then westbound and across Haster Street, Martinez said. Another man, possibly an accomplice, ran behind him.

The man was nearly hit by a truck as he ran across Orangewood, Martinez said.

Ah - darn it. If only that driver had sped up a little, the cops wouldn't still be looking for this creep.

Sister Concerned About Brother, Mother

Just in time for Thanksgiving comes this Dear Abby column.

DESPERATE SIS IN ILLINOIS wrote:

I'm concerned about my 37-year-old brother, "Ricky," who still lives at home with our mother.

You know, it is one thing if you leave home after high school or college and then have to move back in temporarily for some reason, or if your parent or parent(s) need to move in with you after you have established your own place. But never leaving is usually a problem. I know someone who is on track to be in this situation – should his mother still be alive when he is 37.

Ricky is good-looking, never married and has never really had a girlfriend.

This is presented as though either Ricky has some sort of socialization problem or his mother is preventing him from forming relationships with others. Since he never left home, it really doesn't matter if he is good looking. What woman with any choice is going to choose a man who has never left home? Now, what could be going on is that Ricky may going out and fornicating without getting into relationships. Think "booty call." Perhaps he likes the financial security he has with his living arrangements, and he gets his physical release with no strings attached. It is entirely possible, especially if he is good-looking.

Our father passed away four years ago, and since then our mother has become dependent on Ricky for everything.

Is she really, or is she just emotionally needy? I can believe she is actually dependent on him if her husband always did everything for her and she married before ever establishing herself as an individual in the first place. That's one reason people should not marry too young.

Neither one has any friends outside the family.

Usually not a good sign.

I try to get my brother to come out and meet people and have some fun, but he generally declines.

Maybe he feels overshadowed by you, or maybe he isn't in to your crowd.

If he does agree to come, Mother comes with him.

Maybe he wants to get her out, too. But yeah, it would be good if he could go places without her. And maybe he does. Like, say late at night.

They almost act like a married couple.

Yeah, well, there’s the rub, so to speak. As I said before, Ricky may be a player. Heck, he could be a closeted (at least to you) homosexual. Or he could have little or no interest in sex (there are a small minority of men out there like that), or not interested in relationships/marriage. There's even the possibility that Ricky and Mother are more like a married couple than you'd want to ever think about. As bizarre as that sounds, that isn't unheard of, not even in a Dear Abby column. And if we’re a society that says "love" is the determining factor in making a relationship right or not, then who is to say that would be wrong? It's not like your mother is going to have more children, after all.

Dear Abby responded:

Start by having a frank talk with your brother and asking him if he likes living his life this way. There has to be a reason why a good-looking, 37-year-old man has never had a girlfriend. Maybe he doesn't want one.

I’m glad she offers that possibility.

After that, it's time to have a chat with your mother. I don't know how old she is, but one would think that she might like to "play" with people her own age.

How about asking her what she is doing to prepare her son to be independent? After all, chances are he's going to outlive her.

If she doesn't, then MYOB.

Now there's some good advice.