How Many of You Are Sick?

Dr. Laura's mind tends to go places most people's minds don't. I love her show, I love her books, and she's usually right but sometimes I scratch my head.

For example, during the first hour of today's (Wednesday 1/9) show,  man called to talk about an annual family vacation for him, his wife, and their grown kids (two daughters and a son).

Since the eldest is now married, he was wondering about room sharing arrangements and he asked Dr. Laura about having (no doubt since the married daughter and her husband would be sharing a room) the other daughter and a son share a room for a week since the daughters would no longer be sharing a room.

Dr. Laura quickly, emphatically, and repeatedly called it "sick". She acted like she was shocked.. She stated she was "horrified".

I can understand calling it impractical, even unfair, or whatever, but why did she call it sick? Why does she apparently think sleeping in the same room equals sex? Many married people who share a bed know it's not true. We can go months, years sharing a room and not have sex. I mean, she's used the work "sick" for other situations before, but I don't think she could possibly mean that the kids are mentally ill or that they'd be beating up on each other, so I assume she's talking about sex.

She continued the call briefly, then decided to pretend it was a phony call.

For most of history, people have NOT had their own rooms. I guess everyone was sick?

I've noticed before that she usually treats the presence of a bed or touching a bed as akin (no pun intended) to having sex with the person who uses it. For example, kids aren't supposed to touch their parents' bed.

Presumably, the brother and sister would not even be sharing a bed. I distinctly heard they would be sharing a room.

I have to wonder what Dr. Laura does with the fact that some people have sex on the couch, on the living room floor, on the kitchen table, in the family minivan, in the shower (which she sometimes recommends), you name it.

Is Ongoing Victim Status Warranted?

While searching Twitter for Dr. Laura stuff, it became apparent that the last call she took at the end of today's first hour got on the nerves of several people on Twitter, and likely a lot of other people in the audience who didn't take to Twitter.

If you catch the podcast, it started  at 40:23 and is from "Linn" (not sure of the spelling, but a woman). She's 57, and she said she has two older brothers, one of them being two years older. She went on to say that when she was 11 and/or 12, (making him 13/14), he did some sexual things with/to her for a couple of years, about half a dozen times.

Generally, and it was consistent for this call, Dr. Laura notes that if there is less than four years age difference between teens/preteens and there isn't threats or force or anything along those lines, the therapeutic community tends to look at these things not as abuse, but as mutual messing around out of adolescent or childhood curiosity (although, Dr. Laura noted that a lot of feminist/victim-bent counselors would feed into the caller's perspective of it all being horrendous abuse on the part of her brother).

The caller said she would freeze, and that she knew it was wrong. She also said she'd "blocked out" some of it. Those are the "magic words" for Dr. Laura, who dismisses (as, now, do many therapists) "repressed/recovered" memories. She notes that there are a lot of military people with PTSD that wish they had the ability to repress memories. I'd like to believe Dr. Laura is right, but I also wonder if SOME people can repress memories and others "can't".

Anyway, Dr. Laura noted that they were close in age, and also gave the caller a chance to throw in if her brother had been threatening or forceful or whatever, but the caller didn't. Clearly, Dr. Laura expected that if the caller was entirely a victim (rather than being somewhat curious or horny herself), she would have done something after the first or second time... told someone, screamed, fought with him... something. The caller did say there was a time she walked away, but the rest of the time she said she was "frozen".

Dr. Laura referred to the situation as "complicated". She wasn't "blaming the victim". She was, from what I can tell, trying to depict a difference from reluctant, but willing participation in sex play and actually being forced or manipulated in an assault.

If I understood correctly, the caller waited until she was 45 to write a letter and read it to her brother. If he was truly predatory then he likely went on to abuse others. So that's a lot of time for him to go without anyone calling him out. At some point, someone who has been abused has a responsibility to protect others.

Did Dr. Laura botch this call? I don't think so. I can believe that the caller genuinely feels victimized and is still suffering as a result, but the question is why does she feel that way? Perhaps if she'd gotten the right help sooner, she'd be much better off now. Was her brother a predator, or just a curious boy? All we have is what the caller said, and she said she'd "freeze" and didn't tell anyone. I don't know... if I'd been that age and someone was doing something to me, I know I would  have told someone, unless it wasn't predatory and was mutual. But we're not all the same, are we? 11/12 is a little old to stay silent, I think, unless there's a whole 'nother story to what was going on in that family.

I never had any desire to do anything with my siblings. I never looked at them that way. Nothing ever happened between us. I was shy and modest. But as therapists know, childhood/adolescent messing around does happen between some siblings. It can be wrong without being a criminal or abusive matter.

A Waste of Human Potential

People can be convinced to do just about anything, given the right conditions. You don't have to be stupid to allow yourself to fall into a trap. In fact, it often takes someone of high intelligence to be convinced to do some really bizarre things (think cultists who commit suicide together). Check out this Associated Press story by Jeff Karoub about Steven Demink, a very evil man who convinced some mothers to do some evil things. Please don’t think I’m excusing the mothers.

In real life, Steven Demink didn't have children, a college degree or a lasting career. Online, prosecutors say, he presented himself as Dalton St. Clair, an attractive single father and psychologist — a fantasy image authorities say the Michigan man used to persuade mothers across the country to commit unspeakable acts on their children.

Demink, 41, of Redford Township [Michigan, I’m thinking], preyed on single mothers for more than a year, prosecutors say, convincing them to sexually assault their children as a form of therapy. After pleading guilty Monday to six charges related to the sexual exploitation of children, Demink faces 15 years to life in prison when he is sentenced in June.

How was he able to do this?

Demink's alter-ego was a single father of a 14-year-old girl, prosecutors said, and he posted pictures of male models as his headshots.

It's a good thing he really didn’t actually have children.

In some cases, court documents say, Demink promised the women a date if they followed through with his directions.

Playing on desperation for a walking ATM can get you far.

Since authorities arrested him in October, seven children were rescued and at least three mothers have been arrested. Prosecutors say all of the children are now safe.

Isn't that a little like saying that an arson burn victim is now safe because she is no longer on fire?

Authorities say Demink chatted with mothers from New Hampshire, Florida, Idaho and elsewhere, persuading them to engage in sexual acts with their children and send images via e-mail or through a live web stream. The children ranged in age from 3 to 15.

Of course Florida had to be part of this. So many strange stories involve that state.

Demink told U.S. District Judge Gerald Rosen that before his arrest, he worked as a car salesman for about six months and before that for about five years at a local bank.

As if people didn't hate bankers and car salesmen enough already.

He said he completed a U.S. Customs and Border Protection training program in 2002 and worked for the Immigration and Naturalization Service for about a year.

That explains a lot.

As part of his plea agreement with prosecutors, seven charges against Demink were dropped.

I'm assuming the plea agreement was meant to spare victims a trial?

In one case, Demink started online chats with an Oregon woman about the sexual development of her 8-year-old autistic son, according to the plea agreement. He told her to engage in sexually explicit conduct with her son as a way to teach him about sex, prosecutors say, and she did so while Demink watched on a web camera.

You wonder how someone could fall for this, but people fall for all sorts of foolishness. I'm sure if we could be taken through how this happened step by step, we'd have a better understanding of how the mother could have suspended her judgment enough to do this. A lot of it could be the power we give to psychologists.

A Teton County Sheriff's Office report from December 2009 said the Idaho woman met "Daltonst28" on an online dating site called singleparentmeet.com. She told police she performed sex acts on her young son as directed by her online male friend.

The woman's mother, Eileen Schwab of Idaho, said she knows little of how Demink convinced her daughter to follow his orders. She said her daughter was "depressed and lonesome" after her divorce.

Good for Schwab. She decided to protect her grandchildren and the children of others over her protecting her own daughter from legal consequences.

Demink's attorney, Timothy Dinan, said his client "has expressed a lot of remorse" for what he did and has taken responsibility by pleading guilty.

He's probably just sorry he got caught. What a waste of human potential.

I'm glad law enforcement isn't letting the mothers off of the hook. I do wonder if the charges would have been the same and if the news article would have been the same if the sexes were switched - if this had been about some women convincing single fathers to molest their daughters.

Learn how to think clearly, critically, and discern. Don't blindly accept whatever "experts" tell you. Ask them to explain how they came to their conclusions. Some very intelligent and educated people have believed some very wrong things. Look for contradictions. And if something doesn't pass the smell test, think very hard more than once about it.

Shady Siblings?

An anonymous American female in her 50s wrote at Dear Cupid:

I have a suspicion that my boyfriend is having an incestuous relationship with his sister.

Okay, well, stop seeing him. There's really not anything else to do. If he is, then you don't want to be with him. If he's not, then you're too suspicious for him. Or perhaps he’s too close (in a platonic way) with his sister. Be glad he's your boyfriend, not your husband.

Before I met her, she was always very jealous of me which I found very odd.

That can happen with any siblings.

We finally met and she actually lives with us temporarily.

"Us"? So you're shacking up with him? (It gets better... I've read ahead some.) Is this your place, his place, or are both of your names on the place? If it is your place, kick him out. If you are renting, move.

We went to dinner with my son and she sat between my boyfriend and me and they talked low to each other the whole night.

They were being rude. Manners are more important than morals?

Then when we got to my son's house from the restaurant my bf went to the bathroom. She ran in the house to the bathroom door banging on it for him to let her in. When he didn't she stood outside the door till I walked by then she left.

It is quite likely that she wanted to use the bathroom before he did, or she likes bothering him.

Later I heard them talking about sex.

Adults sometimes do this.

The next morning she went up to him and said in a low voice "I thought you were going to show me something" and he said he couldn't cause my son had to get up early and get in the bathroom.

If they're talking about having sex with each other, then they aren't doing a very good job of hiding it from you, could they? Don't you think they would?

Since she's been in my apt I've come home several times to the bed in my room messed up in the same way it would be had my bf had oral sex with me.

Is your boyfriend a complete idiot? He must be, if he is doing someone (sister or not) in your bed and not cleaning up. (Of course, later, she says they grew up highly religious and sheltered, so it is possible that the sister could have a "secret" relationship and could be using the writer’s bed either because it is bigger or just to be rude.)

Also I know she's been using my shower but she doesn't know I know.

So what?

They are 25 and 28.

Ah-HAAAA! Now, you can read past entries here and know that I have enjoyed being a younger man to an older woman. But really... she has these two 20-somethings, who are probably close in age to her son, living with her, and she's taking the relationship seriously with the guy?

I've been using a tape recorder but so far have nothing.

That could be illegal. She added later:

Ok for those who think I'm being too suspicious, I overheard her tell him she's still so tight down there because she's a virgin as if he knew first hand.

Well then we know they at least aren't having intercourse. This kind of talk may be strange, but it still isn't a smoking gun.

Is that something a sister would say to a brother?

Some. My wife's virgin ears used to be assaulted with her siblings talking about their sexual activities. Only not with each other. I think. See below.

And also I know from checking her things in her bathroom that she has been grooming herself and it looks like for the first time from the looks of things. Why would she do that?

Swimsuit?

He also made a joke one day that he liked young, hairy girls supposedly talking about the cat but I don't think he was talking about the cat.

Are you on meds? Should you be? He might also like Greek food, and didn't the Greeks have a story...Oeidipus Rex...about incest?

Also, every time I've suspected something happened, he's always wanted sex with me that night which tells me something during the day really turned him on.

Hmmm. Often, a guy who has had an orgasm earlier in the day will be less inclined to want sex later that same day. But then again, he is in his 20s. The writer also thinks it is a matter of the brother giving the sister oral sex and, apparently, not getting a release until later, with her.

She was abused by her dad growing up and her family life was horrible.

So there could be some messed up behavior as a result.

Well, there's no smoking gun, just a cumulative circumstantial case, but it doesn’t matter. The current situation isn't right for you, whatever it really is.

I could made a good case that two of my wife's siblings are doing it. I'll call them Robert and Alice.

A least one classmate gave Robert sexual favors as a going away present when the family moved to another region of the country. He was only 13, so he got started early. He ended up staying in that other region of the country when the family moved again so that he could complete high school and go to college in that area. This means that Robert didn't see the rest of the family much, including Alice (who is younger), during some crucial years. Siblings who mature apart from each other sometimes experience sexual attraction.

Robert and Alice have both messed around with the same girl.

Though he has sex with them, Robert keeps his women at a distance, and that seems to be fine with them for a while - they'll take what they can get before they or he moves on. Alice bounces from boyfriend to boyfriend rather quickly, and I’m fairly certain she is having sex with very few of them. Marriage doesn't appear to be in the near future for either of them.

After Robert moved back home, Robert, Alice, and my wife's other sibling moved out of the parental home together to share an apartment, then moved back in, and then Robert and Alice moved out together again. They have since moved together again to yet another rental. They have a history of "partying" together. I've noticed they will do horseplay with each other and share the hot tub. When the family is gathered for the day or the evening often with some friends, they will often go off together even though they can hang out together back at their place. It isn't because they are shy, either – they are very outgoing.

The other sibling refers to Alice as Robert's wife (to Alice's protests), and Alice does act very protective of Robert, even though he is older and can handle himself. For example, she'll badmouth his girlfriends if she thinks they have wronged Robert. On social networking sites, Robert has sometimes sent out updates referring to "we", inclusive of Alice.

So... in either case, what say you? Are the siblings in either case too close? Are they that close?

Amish Brothers Accused of Doing Bad Things

...to kids and with animals. The text of this story not for the squeamish.

Where's a good Harrison Ford movie when you need one?

In Grant County, Wisconsin, the authorities believe that two Amish brothers have been doing some very evil and disturbing things, including incestuous molestation and beastiality.

Authorities issued two criminal complaints on Tuesday for the men -- Christian G. Stolzfus, 19, of Fennimore, and Dannie G. Stolzfus, 18, of Fennimore. They were the subjects of a three-month investigation by the Grant County Sheriff's Department and the county's Department of Social Services.

The men face charges involving at least six different family members and multiple animals.

Christian Stolzfus is charged with repeated sexual assault of a child, four counts of first-degree sexual assault of a child under the age of 13 without great bodily harm; attempted first-degree sexual assault of a child under the age of 13 without great bodily harm; two counts of incest; exposing genitals or pubic area; and two counts of sexual gratification with an animal. Authorities said that they believe these incidents occurred during a four-year period.

Dannie Stolzfus is charged with two counts of incest and sexual gratification with an animal. Authorities said that they believe these incidents occurred over a three-year period.

And how old were the victims?

Authorities said the victims, at the time, ranged in age from 5 to 16 years old.

And what animals were involved?

Govier said that that the animals allegedly involved were a cow and a horse.

Try a rattlesnake next time.

Now this is probably the most unbelievable line in the story:

The two men have not yet been arrested. Instead, the Grant County Sheriff's Department said they will be summoned to court to face the charges against them.

HUH?!?

If convicted of the charges, Christian Stoltzfus faces more than of 400 years in prison. Dannie Stoltzfus faces nearly 90 years in prison, if convicted.

I see... no need to arrest them because hey, there's a chance they won't have to spend the rest of their lives in prison, so they're not a flight risk, right? Sheesh. I hope all kids are being kept away from them.

This is not in anyway to excuse these guys, because they should definitely go away for a long time if they did these things, but my guess is that someone did something to these guys when they were younger. Is that person still alive and free?

Let's lighten it up a bit now...

Did Aimee L. Sword Read Sophocles?

Looks like we have what could be another case of Genetic Sexual Attraction*. Or maybe the mother is just a pedophile. Tammy Stables Battaglia reports in the Free Press.

A Waterford mother will spend at least nine years in prison for having sex with the 14-year-old son she gave up for adoption when he was a few days old.

She gave him for adoption when he was a few days old – she didn't have sex with him when he was a few days old. I hope.

Aimee L. Sword, 36, apologized for her actions at her sentencing Monday in Oakland County Circuit Court, said her attorney Mitchell Ribitwer.

Judge Daniel O'Brien sentenced Sword to nine to 30 years in prison.

Thirty years! Looks like she didn't get the vagina discount in sentencing.

Sword received yearly updates and pictures from the boy's adoptive family in Grand Rapids, Ribitwer said. But when she didn't get a picture when the boy turned 14, she contacted him online through a social networking site.

And then things got strange. Another example of why closed adoptions (of whatever they call it when there isn't any contact) is a better way to go.

After the teen got into trouble in Grand Rapids, his adoptive mother -- not knowing about the relationship -- agreed to allow him to stay with Sword in Waterford.

So... he wanted to go, or did this woman offer to "help" and the adoptive mother agreed, against the boy's wishes?

Married at the time, Sword shared her home with her husband and five other children, toddlers to late teens.

Five kids, a hubby, and she did the boy in her home? When?!?

This is not just an evil thing to do to the boy, but and evil thing to do to her husband and the children who lived with her.

But after he returned to Grand Rapids, he talked about the incidents to a counselor, who reported them to police.

"It's the first time I've really seen something like that between a mother-son," Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper said Monday after the sentencing.

Hmmm. I think it happens – it just isn't reported, perhaps in some cases because the boy feels special or grown up or think he is equally guilty because he enjoys it on some level. I'm speculating because I didn't have sex with an older woman – or anyone – until I was 19, and I certainly wasn't sexually abused in any way by a blood relative or anyone else. Even if the child enjoys the activity, it is wrong (people see that more readily when the sexes are reversed). Even if he didn't so much as feel pressured by her, it robs him of some important things and he shouldn't have been put in the position. Aside from messing with his mind - what if she had given him an STD or gotten pregnant by him?

*I can buy the idea of Genetic Sexual Attraction. Someone who is not raised with someone else isn't going to see them as child or parent or sibling. Throw in the fact that your offspring will look like a combination of you (which plays to narcissism... or and/or your parents and siblings who you knew and were fond of) and the person you were attracted to enough to have the sex that made the child. And you want to have some sort of connection or bond with this person you've missed for years. So I can understand - but people have to be accountable for their actions and not act on all of their feelings.

How much more is this going to happen with all of the kids being raised with full or half siblings or with one of their biological parents somewhere else? Aside from adoption, think of all of the out-of-wedlock births, the multiple marriages/divorces, egg and sperm donations, etc.

Today's Show is Brought to You By the Letter I

Wow, there was a bit of a theme running this morning on Yahoo: incest.

If you read this blog, you know I check Dear Abby regularly. I find it on Yahoo while looking over the news there.

In the installment of Dear Abby that was posted today, GRIEVING IN MASSACHUSETTS wrote:

For 15 years I was a happily married homemaker with a wonderful husband. "Duncan" and I attended church together, frolicked through the fields, even exterminated rodents together. He was my best friend. It was bliss.

Last year I found out my father had had an affair with Duncan's mother the year I was born, which makes him my half-brother!

Well, yes, if Duncan's mother was not fooling around with anyone else. I guess the implication here is that she was unmarried.

The news was too much for my husband. He had a fatal heart attack not long after.

This is yet another reason not to have sex with anyone other than your spouse, and not to donate eggs or sperm. In this case, this woman's father and Duncan's mother were likely in the same social or professional circle, and so it wasn't a stretch for GRIEVING and Duncan to meet and fall in love and marry. But there was likely another aspect that was at work, something that happens when siblings or children grow up apart from their sibling or parent, and are later reunited. Some people label it "genetic sexual attraction". Duncan probably reminded her somewhat of her father - and for good reason. Duncan probably saw a bit of himself in her. And since they didn't grow up with the mindframe of "this is my sibling", they instead first looked at each other as a male and a female.

Unless there was some reason that both Duncan's mother and GRIEVING'S father were not around leading up to the wedding, it was evil on their part to compound their earlier sin by not warning their children that they might be (or likely were) half-siblings.

You've probably also heard (or will hear of) Mackenzie Phillips' claim involving incest. The Associated Press reported:

Former child star Mackenzie Phillips said Wednesday her father, John Phillips, who was a leader of the 1960s pop group the Mamas and the Papas, raped her when she was a teenager and that her sexual relationship with him later became what she termed "consensual."

Mackenzie Phillips writes in her new book, "High on Arrival," that she had sex with her father on the night before she was to get married in 1979 at age 19, according to People magazine.

I hope that this is really a way to sell more books, and not reality. Of course, her father isn't around to defend himself.

She told "The Oprah Winfrey Show" in an interview that aired Wednesday that her siblings "definitely have a problem with this."

Well of course they do! They are probably wondering why their dad didn't find them attractive enough to have sex with, too. Or maybe he did, and he was "cheating" on them with you.

Phillips, who starred on TV's "One Day at a Time," said the sexual relationship with her father lasted a decade and ended when she became pregnant and didn't know who had fathered the child. She had an abortion, which her father paid for, and "and I never let him touch me again."

Most likely, the child was not abnormal (beyond the parentage – drugs were likely more of a harm to the child than her grandfather being her father), and even if the child had some abnormalities, why kill an innocent baby created by consensual behavior? Why not adopt out? To hide it all from the media and your husband (if you were married at the time)?

Also, how can a husband compete with the bond his wife has with her father if it is also a sexual bond? What a rotten thing to do to a spouse. So "consensual" incest does have victims - children and spouses included.

Phillips said the sexual relationship, although she believes it became consensual, was "an abuse of power" and "a betrayal" on her father's part.

Yes, and that is one of the problems with it, although there are other consensual sexual relationships that are an abuse of power, too.

"I can't be the only one this has happened to," Phillips said. "Someone needs to put a face on consensual incest."

Why? Hey, if anyone is going to do it, I'd rather it be Angelina Jolie. (I am not accusing Jolie of actually being, as rumored, incestuous. But she is a hotter "face".)

Actually, people have already tried to put on a face on this. There have been features in the mainstream media on consensual incest, especially involving siblings who grew up apart. That one famous person claims to have done it likely isn't going to make a difference. And again, why do we want there to be a difference? Shouldn't this be one of those things a person keeps private? Or does she want to warn others of the perils of consensual incest?

Given the drugs and how the Phillips started (by her own claim), I don't know if this was really consensual. Certainly the writer to Dear Abby did not consent in that she did not know her husband was her half-brother, so that was definitely not consensual.

Will we see more famous people coming forward with tales like this?