Answering Marriage Seller Assertions, Talking Points, and Questions - Part 5

Read Part 1 here and Part 2 here and Part 3 here and Part 4 here.

 

 

Doesn't the woman you're with want to marry?

There is more than one way to answer this depending on your situation, but this question is based on you having at least one woman you are seeing, which may not be the case. In some cases, more than one of these answers will be useful for you.

A) No.

B) She says she wants to marry, but I know she isn't prepared to be a wife.

C) More than one woman I'm with wants to marry.I treat them equally by not marrying either/any.

D) There are things I want. That doesn't make it her/any woman's obligation to do them.

 

E) So what?

F) I take marriage very seriously and I don't want to enter into it lightly [...or at all].

G) We haven't been seeing each other long enough. [60 years might be enough.]

It is important to remember that you're not holding any woman hostage. Ideally, you haven't made any promises about actually proposing or getting married to any specific woman, nor are you living with any woman. She is continuing to see you AS-IS.

If you have told a woman you will propose to her or you will marry her, you need to invoke your prerogative to change your mind, and the sooner you make that clear, the better. She might leave/stop seeing you, she might not. Even if she does, it is far better than marrying. Living together is usually a very bad idea, but don't make it worse by signing a terrible state contract.

This sort of question by marriage sellers is often followed up with "So you're just using her?" or "You're wasting her time!" You are no more using her than she is using you. Since you're not married, your interactions are entirely voluntary, whereas marrying (even if subsequently divorcing) forces some interactions even if one of you no longer wants to interact in that way. If she doesn't enjoy the time she's spending with you or doesn't otherwise get anything out of it, she is free to NOT see you.

Part 6

Don't Be This Guy

If they didn't have kids together, I'd call for someone to liberate this beaten dog of a man.

Emily Lefroy wrote this article that is somehow at nypost.com and not The Onion.

A mom-of-two has revealed how her husband’s addiction to porn almost ruined their marriage and tore their family apart — and is now desperately warning others to be careful of any secrets their partner may be hiding.

"Porn addiction" is a term used by grifters, charlatans, pushers of porn panic, and people whose partners are angry about them viewing porn. It is not a term used by serious mental health professionals.

Jourdan Kehr shared her story in an effort to warn others about the hidden secrets their spouses may be keeping from their wives, calling her own experience “truly unbearable.”

From the looks of it, she shared her story to try to humiliate at least one other person and to get herself attention.

Kehr had had a hunch something was off with her partner, but what she discovered on his phone, an old video of two people having sex open on his screen, she described, was “truly unbearable.”

“I couldn’t stop shaking and I felt like my soul had left my body,” the photographer, from West Virginia, US, told NeedToKnow.co.uk.

“I didn’t know how to go on and I didn’t know how it was possible for any human to survive being in this much pain,” she admitted. “It made me physically ill for months.”

There was a problem alright. She might be mentally ill or have a personality disorder.

She mistreated her husband.

While Kehr, who shared two children, aged five and one, with her husband of nine years, believes it’s normal to find other people attractive, she deems it “unfaithful” to lust and fantasize after them sexually.

Then just about every married person is unfaithful, by that definition. The only way a healthy man doesn't fantasize about other people is if he is actively, constantly trying to avoid it, and never screws up. Dr. Laura and Dennis Prager, both very strong about marriage, fidelity, and "traditional values" would both say this woman's behavior and standards are problematic.

Now, couples can set their own rules. If they mutually agree that using media can be "unfaithful," then that's up to them. Of course, I would tell a man to never ever agree to such relationships. If he does, however, he should specify what she isn't allowed to look at, too.

Five months after Kehr’s devastating discovery, the couple are now in a much better place, crediting copious sessions with therapists, support groups and sexaholics anonymous as helping them get through.

What a farce. That poor man. I hope he does a better job of hiding it until the kids are grown.

“The porn industry is corrupt and I hope that with time, more men will wake up to the very real dangers of porn on their mind, body and relationships,” she said.

Go ahead and name an industry that isn't "corrupt." The garment industry is "corrupt," but I bet she doesn't make all of her clothes from scratch.

“I don’t want to shame men or women for viewing pornography,” she continued.

"It's cheating and it's corrupt, but I don't want to shame people." Get out of here with that crap.

According to a study by The Recovery Village, 10% of U.S. adults admit to having an addiction to internet pornography. 20% of them are men and 17% women.

I couldn't believe that line was still in the article when I retrieved it. The implication is that 63% of porn "addicts" are not men nor women. They are genderless, or something.

It's too bad the article didn't include comments from some good therapists.

Unmarried ladies: If you can't handle the fact that a man is going to notice other women, depictions of other women, and fantasize about other women, don't marry a man.

Wives: If your reaction to normal male sexual nature in your husband who isn't having an affair is anything close to this woman's reaction, you need some serious help.

Men: Don't be this guy. If you haven't married, don't. If you're married with minor kids, and your wife hasn't indicated she'd be rational about this, hide it from her and don't be careless about it, at least until the kids are grown.

Another Reason For Men to Avoid the Marriage Track

 

Guys, there are many reasons almost none of you are husband material and you should reorient your thinking and efforts away from finding a wife.

I’m adding another one I just heard Dr. Laura give. She has long said men shouldn’t use social media. But recently, relevant to when I’m writing this, she has also said “liking” pictures of women in swimsuits disqualifies you. That’s what she told a young woman who was dating a guy for about half a year.

Heed what she says, guys.

Spend your time, money, and energy doing other than looking for a wife. Want female companionship? Run game. 

Life on the Carousel

In an effort to discourage what they see as unfair competition, people like Dr. Laura will tell unmarried women something like:

 "The more sexual partners a woman has before she marries, the less she'll enjoy marital sex."

How exactly is that determined?

We can't compare people to themselves. No one person has had both experiences - having many sexual partners before marrying and having few or none before marrying. So how can anyone know?

This is how it is determined. Usually among other questions, they ask women who are or were married:

• How satisfied they are/were with their marital sex life
• How many partners they had before they married

Then, they notice that there appears to be some correlation.

Let's be clear about a few things though.

1) This is based on self reporting. People who have had few or no sex partners before their marriage have nothing for comparison. It's like giving a starving person plain rice. How happy is that person going to be with rice? Very! As far as sex, it's basically saying "I like sex" or "I'm happy with our sex life" even if they're having sex four times per year.

2) Who has few or no sex partners before marrying? Very religious people. Many of them consider it a sin or even a "negative confession" to say that they are anything less than thrilled with their marital sex life. Also, some unattractive women don't attract many sex partners. Of those who do marry, they're probably going to be happy.

3) There are many women who saved sex for marriage and then had a terrible sex life.

4) There are women who had "many" sex partners before marriage and have a great marital sex life. They tend to be women who like sex a lot and have a high drive.

5) What people who use this tactic are advocating is that you make vows and sign a state contract with someone before finding out if you're sexually compatible. It is VERY different to have no sex at all before marrying and to get very sexual with one person before marrying them. The latter often get lumped together with the former, even though with the latter, if they realize they're not sexually compatible, they are far less likely to marry in the first place.

6) It means something that the people who use this tactic don't apply to anything else. If a woman never goes to a nice restaurant before she marries, won't that make the experience of going to one with her husband that much more special? So an unmarried woman should decline offers to go to a nice restaurant, right?

There are many women who get bored of sex. If those women have had many sex partners before they married, then they might hit that wall of boredom earlier in their marriage. Incels and some others (like Dr. Laura, "purity" purveyors) say a woman's ability to bond, and thus enjoy sex more, gets damaged more the more sex partners she has (like a piece of tape that gets reused and reused loses effectiveness). But for any individual woman, there's no assurance that she'll enjoy sex a lot if she's waits and she won't enjoy it much if she doesn't.

Again, these studies never separate out women who have decided not to marry at all, are enthusiastic about sex, and don't have moral qualms about unmarried sex. Some of them enjoy sex very much. I know my first serious girlfriend enjoyed sex a lot even after having many partners. Or at least she was very effective at pretending to.

Answering Marriage Seller Assertions, Talking Points, and Questions - Part 4

Read Part 1 here and Part 2 here and Part 3 here.


It's not a commitment without marriage.

There is more than one way to answer this.

A) I don't want a commitment.

B) That's your assertion. Your opinion doesn't make it true.

People make commitments, including in romantic relationships, all of the time without a bad state contract.

Legally marrying isn't a commitment to anything other than default paternity and the spouse who earns more paying the other spouse.

It's very clear some people commit without legally marrying and some people legally marry but aren't committed to caring for, or staying with, the other person.

Commitment is demonstrated in behavior.

Let's consider two couples. The first couple never marries, but they take care of each other with love, kindness, and affection for decades, until death. The second couple gets married, cheat on each other, generally treat each other like crap, and break up. Who was truly committed?

Part 5

How To Avoid Single Women With Kids

Someone came here by searching "how to avoid single women with kids."

The most popular entry here is a warning not to date single mothers. You can see for yourself there are hundreds of comments on it.

Of course, you can avoid single women with kids by avoiding women entirely. That fail-safe solution isn't for everyone, though, especially if your a self-destructive masochist who actually wants to get married.

So how does a guy avoid single women with kids (single mothers), especially since more and more women are mothers the older they get?

Hang out in the pet store by the cat supplies.

But seriously, simply pay attention. Most single mothers won't stop talking about their kids, or will badmouth "the father of my kid(s)". In online dating profiles, their kids will often be in their pictures, even though there really isn't a good reason to show complete strangers pictures of their kids unless they're trying to attract pedophiles.

Any woman who hides the fact she has kids is definitely bad news. If you're just looking for sex, there's a chance a woman who hides or omits that she has children is also just looking for sex, and so you might think that's a good thing. But ask yourself... how did she become a single mother in the first place? By other men who were just getting together with her for sex? Stay away, unless you have had a vasectomy, and even then, you should probably heed the warning against dating single mothers.

How do you smoke out a single mother who is hiding the fact that she's a mother?

Perhaps by moving things to her place as soon as you can. You don't want her coming back to your place, anyway. If she's reluctant to let you see her place, she might also be thinking about her safety and convenience, or it might be a mess, or she might live with her husband(!), or she might have kids.

It would take a lot of work for her to remove signs of being a mother from around her place. She could try to pass off the other bedrooms as roommates' rooms.

It doesn't matter how things are going, or how attractive you find her. Once you realize she has kids, especially if she hid it, and especially if you haven't had a vasectomy, you need to drop her immediately. Leave. Ghost her.

If you have any tactics that work for you, please do share them in the comments.

What Newly Divorced or Freed Men Should Do

"Divorce is expensive because it is worth it." -Modern Proverb

So you're newly divorced or about to be divorced, or out of a long/live-in relationship.

What should you do?

This is all about minimizing risks, damage, and pain, and getting you to thrive and enjoy your life.

1) Reject the idea that you are a failure, or this is just about you or just about her. Most marriages fail; even more so for relationships that don't marry. It was likely a bad idea to get married or so deep into the relationship in the first place. Resist the notion that you should try this again or you should have shame for the divorce/breakup. If anything, it's a shame people have been pressured into these situations.

How to Prevent Domestic Violence, Cheating, and Divorce

This is how you can prevent domestic violence, cheating, and divorce:

Do not marry.

Do not live together.

Do not promise nor expect exclusivity.

Free Men who want to remain free men in good standing do not engage in rape, sexual harassment, domestic violence, stealthing, stalking, or revenge porn.

Free men, if they want sex, run game, which ensures that they don't waste time with women who do not want sex. Free men do not marry nor live with women. Free men do not agree to exclusivity. This prevents domestic violence, cheating, and divorce. It also prevents rape.

More men should be Free Men.

Learn to Say No

Something any adult needs to thrive and to protect themselves is to learn to be comfortable saying "No."

You do not need to, nor is it healthy, to try to satisfy every request that anyone brings to you. Some religious people mistakenly think that if someone comes to them with a request, they are supposed to say yes, or at least find a solution for them. But that's not what the Lord does. The Lord often tells people "No." If you're ever going to parent, and most of you shouldn't, you'll have to say "NO!" quite a bit.

Do you ever find yourself agreeing to someone else's request or demand, only to regret it later or even immediately, or looking for ways to back out, or simply not showing up?

There are two relationships a man can have that make saying "No" extremely difficult:

1. His relationship with his wife

2. His relationship with his boss

Both have to do with his financial well-being. His wife can take away over half of everything he's earned (and his children!). His boss can fire him.

Men can avoid or mitigate this problem by saying no to marriage in the first place, and by being self-employed or at least having an Emergency Fund.

It should be easier to say "No" to anyone else, whether the person at your door, on your phone, or in your inbox claiming to be a salesperson, the panhandler on the street, the traffic cop who asks to check inside your vehicle with no probable cause or warrant, relatives, neighbors, someone you're dating, and just about everyone else.

People do need cooperation, so of course there are times you should say "Yes" even if it wasn't your idea, or isn't exactly what you want to do right now, because it is the right thing to do or because it will help you reach your other goals. But there we be times when you'll need to say "No" to avoid people walking all over you, or overextending yourself, or moving further away from your goals, or giving up your dreams, or any number of other reasons.

The more self-sufficient and independent you are, the easier it will be for you to say no. If you can walk away from something and be happy or at least content or satisfied, or more than you'd be if you'd said yes, that's a great place to be.

Two Types of No: No as in "absolutely not," and no as in "sweeten this deal and maybe I'll say yes." Let's look at both of those.

What Honest Messaging Would Look Like From Censorship Crusaders

Whether #Traffickinghub, Laila Mickelwait, Justice Defense Fund, Exodus Cry, Fight the New Drug, or so many others, anti-porn crusaders are desperate to present their attacks on adult media as either an attack on criminal material or only a specific company because of claimed crimes (Traffickinghub/Mickelwait/JDF).

Here's what honest messaging from them would look like.

"We don't like porn, or we like it but wish we didn't."

"Our religions are against nudity in media, erotic images, and sexy dancing, so we try to stop others from being involved with these things."

"Compulsive porn viewing is a common sign someone has problems with compulsive tendencies."

But they want to get people to stop watching all adult media, or at least feel really bad about it, or donate money to them, and they know that if they were honest about that, their messages would only motivate some of the people in their own small religious circles.

So what they do is try to correlate negative indicators with "using porn" in a way that tries to get people to believe that porn caused these bad things.

Quite frequently, they try to portray things true of (even common with) media in general, business in general, organizations in general, or even humanity in general to be unique problems with porn, stripping, etc.

Example: "She's only doing this because she needs money."

Well, yeah, isn't that why almost everyone works a job?

There are countless other examples.

Unfortunately, they push panic on the gullible.

Is Getting Married a Smart Short-Term Financial Move For a Man?

I was listening to podcasts from the Dr. Laura Show from mid-June 2015, and she took a call from a woman whose grown daughter was in a five-year relationship, and NOT shacking up with the guy. Both of them had been pursuing graduate degrees. The reason the guy had given to the caller's daughter about not yet being married was financial. Dr. Laura scoffed at this and noted he's supporting himself and paying rent, so there would be no cost to to marrying and moving in the caller's daughter. [This entry has been bumped up.]

I've heard Dennis Prager express similar ideas.

Dr. Laura did acknowledge that having children would increase costs.

A lot of guys fall for the mistake in thinking that moving in a wife or a shack-up honey will be 1) financially efficient and 2) a good financial decision. Let's just stick to moving in a wife, since shacking up is a horrible idea all around, and Dr. Laura would discourage it. [Marrying is almost always a horrible idea for men, too.]

The reality is, it isn't as simple as "Oh, now she's here so she can contribute to rent." The ideal portrayed is that, after marrying, these two will continue to earn at least as much as they already are in their respective jobs, and they will eliminate redundant expenses. and would be able to buy some things they'd usually buy separately "in bulk" together. But how often does it really work on that way?

In no particular order:

1) Moving a wife in means getting married. While Dr. Laura often tells the joint biological parents who are shacking up to run down to the county office and get married (because marriage is correlated to benefits to the children), it is highly unlikely this woman, who has been dating this guy for five years and not shacking up with him, would agree to that. Instead, an expensive wedding and related expensive events/purchases would be "necessary".

2) Once married, women tend to push for children (and others also apply pressure to have children) or "forget" to take contraception.

3) Most likely, his utility and grocery costs will increase, along with his vehicle maintenance and operation costs.

4) She will start buying all sorts of stuff they don't really need, since she won't feel like she needs to be tight with her money for survival. His money will now legally be her money, so she won't feel the need to be thrifty. Also, she will insist on redecorating, and throwing out and replacing everything from cookware to furniture, especially if some other woman he had sex with ever touched any of it.

5) For much the same reasons as #4, she might push for a bigger apartment or a home purchase.

6) She will pressure him to work less and avoid networking happy hours, to make social engagements she's arranged, and to keep him from spending time with other women, who are now fully integrated into workplaces. She will also likely discourage him from taking promotions that would involve moving or changing health plans or might put him on the radar of women she thinks are more attractive than her.

7) She will likely work less.


Don't even try the "married men earn more money" line.

There's probably a bunch I'm forgetting. The point is, dismissing financial concerns as unfounded fails the reality test. Now maybe he's just using it as an excuse. But it isn't necessarily the case. And  these things  are just the short-term, because that was the issue. The claim was that the man wanted to be on better financial footing before marrying. For the long term, marrying will definitely be against his financial advantage, as at least half of everything he'll earn will be hers by law.

Is It Really Sacred?

Since I listen to every (new) minute of the Dr. Laura Program, I heard her give this monologue recently. It has been posted on her website as a blog post. I still don't see an ongoing blog tab anywhere on the site, but this was tweeted out (by her staff, since she doesn't touch Twitter). It is titled "Respect Your Marriage Vows by Not Shacking Up First".

As regular readers of this blog know, I think shacking up is a generally bad idea; it's almost as bad as legally marrying.

But Dr. Laura promotes marriage and is against shacking up. Dr. Laura maintains that her program is a secular, non-religious program. But if you pay attention, she invokes religious concepts sometimes.

If someone isn't planning to marry, shacking up can't possibly disrespect their marriage vows. And now, many, perhaps most people, who do want to marry will refuse to do so without first living with the person they are considering as a possible spouse. The secular world has made it clear that they see shacking up as a normal part of relationship cycles. Without invoking religion, it is extremely difficult to explain how this would disrespect their future marriage vows. Dr. Laura has tried to teach that it is objectively detrimental to shack up, which I address here. In this blog posting of hers, she tries to explain why shacking up is bad a different way.

If you call anything a ‘piece of artwork’ or if you call something sacred, don't you immediately look at it differently from everyday objects or experiences? It doesn't matter if you're religious or not, I think when we say something is sacred, everybody lowers their voice and shows more respect. It's not accidental.

So, playing a mind game with oneself? Then someone could call shacking up "sacred" and this is all over.

You Can Choose to Persuade Rather Than Parent

There's a lot to like about Western civilization. It's clearly imperfect, but nothing of this world is perfect. Some people are hellbent on destroying Western civilization and others are useful dupes who are working for the same goal, without realizing it. A major component of Western civilization (WC) is Europe. As such, some people who hate WC and some people who love WC equate the concept with "white" people.

Many defenders of WC fret about the "low fertility rate" in European and certain Anglosphere countries, like the USA. Essentially, if the people of these countries don't have enough children to replace themselves (meaning, more than one child per parent, or more than two children per married couple), the countries will either undergo depopulation or immigrants will fill the void, taking up available residences and jobs.

Some of these fretful defenders of WC really do see it as White Culture and are very concerned that "white" people aren't having enough children and are being "replaced" by others.

Whether someone is concerned about white or Western, they see it as the duty of Europeans, Americans (of European ancestry, if white is the concern), etc. to get married and have and raise at least three children and, in some cases, as many as possible. That way, they reason, we can defend and perpetuate Western culture, preserving our heritage.

There's a problem with that, however.

Another Lament That People Like Erotica

When you watch sexy videos, it makes Mark H. Butler and Misha D. Crawford sad.

Pornography is a cultural icon of the sexual revolution, and many in society have been wisely wary of both. But not so much anymore, as a recent nationally representative survey shows that overall acceptance of pornography has jumped in the last few years to reach over 70 percent.

That's just people willing to tell strangers. Significantly more watch.

The ubiquity of internet porn, with its triple-A engine of accessibility, anonymity, and affordability, both highlights and heightens this acceptance, while simultaneously increasing and intensifying debate about whether pornography represents a real public health risk—to relationships and a stable society.

It's not a public health risk.

A Common Red Flag When Considering Marriage

A tweet by Brad Wilcox:

New "research by Stanley & Rhoades [indicates...] men & women who cohabited w 2+ partners prior to marriage were 60% more likely to end up seeing their marriage end in divorce or separation"

Well, there you have it guys. Have you shacked up with at least two women, including your current girlfriend/fiancee? Has she? If either of you have, you have another reason to avoid marrying. Your marriage would be doomed!

Sure, the tweet and the report behind it are intended to try to get people who haven't shacked up yet not to do so. But we can still apply it to people who have, who should use the information to avert disaster. DO NOT MARRY!

Wilcox had a whole article about this.